Tidbit: Diesel Fireplace Heater- Tips for Installation and Use

This is one of a series of brief, no nonsense posts that we call a Tidbit:

noun; small and [possibly] particularly interesting items of gossip or information...

The purpose is to share succinct posts about lessons learned, or things we use or do that work [or don't...] that are common to many of us boaters. 

The goal is to garner feedback from those of you having first-hand experience with a better approach/ solution/ product...  

We never assume what we are sharing is the ideal or only; it just seems to best suit our needs [and/or habits and/or budget] from our experiences thus far...

Sometimes these Tidbits originate from a topic of discussion on one of the forums we participate in, and this happens to be one. [The original forum response- which includes additional details- is linked below.]

Since we encounter this question fairly often- and since it may affect other boaters- it made sense to post a more detailed response for future reference.

                   ➛ ➛ Peruse the right-hand sidebar for the up-to-date list of Tidbits ➛ ➛                   

It is rare to find a vessel that doesn't have some type of non forced-air diesel heater up here. 

Some people report continuing issues with sooting on deck using this kind of heater.

This post is a quick brain dump listing installation and usage parameters I have found to help minimize sooting. I ​rarely see any dirty decks​- ​but it can happen.​ 

Below I'll list the ranked causes of sooting with this kind of heater that I've experienced​ over time.

​I have had heaters like this on 4 of 5 boats I've owned over the past 4 decades. All were full time cruisers I used in higher latitudes. (>56°N in the Pacific.)​

​In Fall 2021 installed a​ Sig Marine 120 (pretty equivalent to the Dickinson Newport) ​on our current boat. In winter it ​is only been off a handful of times (when the boat is unoccupied) since November while we work on some winter projects at the dock. No soot. No backdrafting. (But we have been using this type of heater in 4 boats over the past 4 decades, so the learning curve is well absorbed.)

We find the heater output is too much in our 43 ft ​ketch if ambient temps are ​in the 40's °F. We then have to open ports and hatches to keep from overheating on the lowest setting- ​if we do light it in those temps...​ (This boat has several redundant sources of heat.)​

Our ​SIGMAR ​heater is on the lowest setting most of the time- ​sometimes elevated ​closer ​to a medium setting when ​its single digits above zero F and blowing outside...

What ​experience can I share specifically about this size and type of heater with a 3" flue​?​ (Following is a ​dense ​​overview full of hints about things I think I have learned over time- only for those truly interested...)

Here is Dickinson's version for reference.


Installation is important:

• Keep ​the total ​flue length ​a ​minimum of 6 ft, max of 8 ft
  
  
• Straight flue is best. 
• ​I​f you must dog​-​leg​ the​ flue​, don't use more than 2 elbows, and use the smallest angle you can- with nothing greater than 45°.
  

The barometric damper is properly adjusted in this photo of the heater in use.

The shield installed on top of the angled flue [to help shield the headliner]  and the vertical solid filler [right in photo] behind the perforated flue guard [left, but not showing much in this photo, but is prominent in the first photo of this post] were both fashioned from pieces cut from a single snap together 3" SS flue pipe.

• Install a barometric damper​ [see above photo]
• Locate it​ no further than 24 inches from where the flue exits the heater​, and no closer to the heater than 12 inches. 
• Be sure they are improperly installed and adjusted.
• Carefully adjust the ​barometric ​damper per manufacturer's instructions​ (I inserted a photo of our barometric damper with the heater on low, above, for reference.)​
• Most complaints about sooting are about installs lacking a barometric damper (and occasionally from improper adjustment of one that is installed.)

• Use an H cap​ (Charley-Nobel) in breezy conditions​. We have found it to be consistently better at handling wind gusts than the round version​ (in our testing and experience​.)

  

This is our typical flue set-up if expecting windy conditions. The flue extension length was determined by testing different lengths and caps during the same steady 20kt wind conditions. 

As mentioned in the main text, this 3" flue gets covered with a 4" flue sleave [note to self; need photo...] in cold weather to help maintain inner flue temperature, and consequently draft. [This 4" flue cover adds the side benefit of being cooler, and thus less threatening to bare skin and meltable fabrics the crew might be wearing in winter.]

We remove the flue and cap it off when not at anchor or at the dock; photo further down.

 

​ We sometimes use a round cap in calm conditions- typically fringe heating season overnighters.

• If planning to use the heater in temps cooler than about +20°F [-7°C] for extended periods, have a length of larger diameter flue pipe [4 inch diameter covers our main 3 inch flue well] you can ​temporarily ​slide over the primary flue above deck to provide a layer of insulation- helping ​to ​keep the main flue warm​ to promote a consistent draft in cold weather.​
• This insuilating sleave adds the side benefit of being cooler, and thus less threatening to bare skin and meltable fabrics the crew might be wearing in winter.

• Duct combustion air from ​an ​enclosed, vented space (our's draws from the engine room. This is where the bulk of the soot will go if you ever suffer an extreme backdraft.​ More below.)​
  
  
• Install a gravity feed day tank if you don't want to listen to a fuel pump burp every second or so while running the heater.
• Install a valve on the tank before the fuel hose.
  
  (Our day tank is filled by the 12 volt fuel pump that runs the tank transfer/polishing loop.)

• The day tank overflows back into the starboard fuel tank when full.

• Install a small shut-off valve at the fuel inlet on the heater. Develop the habit of closing it when the heater is off.
  
  This is a safety against fuel flowing through the overflow- draining the day tank- in the future when the small o-ring on the carburetor needle valve tip fails. (Ask me how I know this.)

• ​Run the overflow from the carburetor to the fuel tank if possible (vs. an overflow bottle.)
  
  If you do this, install a valve on that port on the heater, and remember to close that valve temporarily when fueling the tank the return goes to- but only if you don't want to back-fill the heater if you overfill the boat. (i.e., fuel up the fuel fill hose- which will be higher than the heater carburetor...)​
  
  
• ​Remove the above deck portion of the flue when the heater is not in use for extended periods, and always before getting underway.
  
  Secure the flue opening with the water tight cap made for the through-deck fitting installed on your boat.

  

Operational considerations:

• #1 diesel (AKA Heating oil​;​ kerosene​)​ burns much cleaner than #2 (The carburetor must be adjusted to match fuel selected​. See manufacturer's instructions.​)
  
  
• When first turning on fuel after preheat, ​set to medium ​flame size for at least 10 mins to warm the heater and flue. Then start turning ​it ​up/ down a little bit at a time- pausing a few minuites between adjustments for the heater to equilibrate to the new setting.​ (This is not a thermostat; it is a fuel flow meter... give the heater time to adjust to each new setting.​)

What causes sooting? (Note that sooting either vents out of flue top onto the deck, or when back​ ​pressured into boat via the combustion air intake in the bottom of the heater.)​ If [when?] it happens, either Krud Kutter, Davis FSR, and Someone To Do It cream cleaner are the magical soot removers...

Following are the primary reasons sooting occurs, in order of their occurrence from my experience.​

• Cause #1: Preheating the heater using diesel fuel ​with a tissue paper ​wick as the manual instructs. This causes a build up of soot in the flue and in the bottom of the burn chamber over time.
  
  Instead, we use ab​o​ut 3/4 of an ounce of denatured alcohol [AKA alcohol stove fuel; typically available where paint is sold]- and​ a long neck lighter instead of​ tissue paper​​ to ignite it. We​ pour the alcohol into the middle of the COLD heater chamber, turn ​the ​combustion air fan on low; lite ​the ​alcohol​ (the fan being on keeps the alcohol from 'poofing' when you light it.)​ When the alcohol flame starts going below the burner ring​ (​2-3 mins on average​) turn on the fuel flow to a medium setting, and t​urn off ​the ​combustion air fan​ (​unless it is blowing outside... more on that, below.​)​
  
  
• Cause #2: On our stove, we ALWAYS make sure the flame is above the 'top burner ring' otherwise there is too much combustion air and not enough fuel = soot. Slightly increase the fuel flow to correct this issue.
  
  Side Note: that top burner ring is removable. Don't assume it is installed correctly. It can also cause a miriad of flame and soot issues if incorrectly installed. (Read the manual!)
  
  
• Cause #3: Too much fuel and not enough combustion air = SOOT! (i.e., Too large of a flame.)
  
  Either decrease fuel flow, or turn the combustion air fan on and adjust the air flow to optimize the flame.
  
  I believe this is the #1 cause of sooting on deck: people turning the heater up too high in hopes of heating the boat faster.
  
  
• Related Cause #3.5: As the heater warms after being first lit, in a few hours the carburetor will warm, thinning the fuel it contains, thereby causing the fuel to flow faster. This results in the flame size slowly increasing- perhaps unnoticed- and possibly getting large enough to cause sooting as described in #3.
  
  Be aware of this, and keep an eye on the flame. Always.
  
  
• Cause #4: Rapid wind gusts (over 35 knots for our installation) COMBINED with negative static pressure inside the boat​​ can snuff out the flame and cause a woof when the still flowing fuel reignites in the hot burn chamber- blowing soot out every small crack and the flue and air intake openings. This is the most dreaded.
  
  It ​sometimes ​happens to us when we experience katabatic gusts (williwaws)- typically in glacial fjords in certain conditions. Think zero to 60 knots in ​under 10​ seconds.​
  
  S​ometimes ​slightly opening a hatch or port will help ​prevent a negative static pressure inside the boat ​in catabatic conditions​; ​and sometimes turning on the combustion air fan​ ​and increasing its speed to balance the wind gusts​-​ or a combination- ​helps prevent the flameouts.​

• Cause #5: [A minor contributor] When turning off the heater (by stopping the flow of fuel) turn the combustion fan on low for the few minutes [~10] it takes for the flame to completely extinguish. (A tiny flame flickers in the bottom of the burn pot for several minutes- burning off residule fuel.) Running the combustion fan during cool-down helps prevent small amounts of soot and smoke, and clears fuel odors from the heater.

I hope this quick brain dump is useful, and that I didn't forget anything critical.

These heaters are very ​safe if installed properly, and ​worthwhile if you ​are patient enough to learn how to use them. It is important to be very observant as you go through the learning curve of using and adjusting this type of heater​, and develop the habit of scrutinizing the flame (and adjusting when necessary) on a routine basis. ​

​We love the fireplace ambience that comes with the nice radiant heat.​

Do you have any tips and tricks to share on this topic?

_________________________

Link to original forum post 1-Feb-2023 which spawned this blog post.

PS: We are occasionally asked about how we installed the through-deck plate [AKA deck iron] when some of you notice we didn't use the typical teak ring to account for the deck angle.

Ignore the chain hook and line which shows in the two photos preceeding this one.

I was using a line to keep a small amount of tension on the top flue so it didn't lean over before the gasket set-up.

We used Sikaflex 291. [Paintable; sandable; heat resistent; can also be used underwater...]

Here are the basic steps we took to install the deck iron using Sikaflex as the spacer:  [Sorry, I was by myself and it wasn't convenient to take photos of every step along the way...] In fact, I suspect it took me almost as long to detail the following in writing as it did to perform the install - not including locating and cutting the flue clearance hole through the deck...

After the hole is made through the deck: [Measure 99+ times, then drill a small pilot hole to confirm (e.g.,  A 1/8" hole that can easily be epoxied closed if the position is incorrect...)  Then cut the main flue clearance hole as recommended by the manufacturer...]

Then...

1. Set the deck iron flat on the deck [no wedge yet] centered over the hole.
2. Rotate it so that the fasteners fall where you prefer them to be.
3. Apply wide painter's tape [e.g., 2" wide] around the perimeter of the deck iron, with the centerline of the tape on the joint between deck and deck iron [half the tape width on the deck iron, the other half on the deck.]
4. Mark where you will drill the pilot holes for your fasteners of choice.
5. Carefully slice the tape at the very edge of the deck iron with a very sharp blade.
6. Lift the deck iron from the deck and firmly press all remaining tape edges down onto the deck and the deck iron perimeter. 
1. This is what will keep the Sikaflex edge neat when you are finished- with little to no clean-up needed.
7. Insert a short length [e.g., 3" long] piece of oversize flue [4" to go around our 3" main flue] into the deck iron. Either glue it in place [a day or two before install; Sikaflex or hot melt glue would work] or use tape around the outside perimeter of the oversize flue sleave inside the deck iron. 
1. This short piece of oversized flue serves as both additional fire proofing between the main [small diameter] flue and the edges of the deck hole. 
2. It also prevents the Sikaflex from making contact with the main [hot] flue when you get to that step.
8. Drill the pilot holes you marked in step #4, above, for the deck iron fasteners you chose. 
1. Don't drill through to inside of boat... [future leaks]
2. Use a countersink bit to create a small fillet on top of each hole for sealant to flow into, forming a permanent O-ring style gasket for each fastener where it penetrates the deck.
3. And remember to use appropriate methodology if the deck is cored at your flue penetration location...
9. Dry-fit the deck iron with main flue installed underneath to center in the hole in the deck.
10. Remove deck iron again, and insert all fasteners through deck iron, and run a tight fitting, small diameter O-ring up each fastener to keep the deck iron flange tight against the fastener head. 
1. The O-rings will hold the deck iron in position- level above the deck- while you fit it into final position just before adding your Sikaflex gasket.
11. Put deck iron into final position, carefully screwing fasteners into pilot holes until the flange is level [not flat on the deck- unless your deck is level at that location...]  
1. The O-Rings you installed will hold it off the deck temporarily in final position.
12. Double-check that the oversized, short sleave [4" dia x 3" long in our case] and main flue [3" diameter for us] are exactly in position in the hole through the deck, and in the deck iron.
13. Fill the void between the deck and the deck iron completely with Sikaflex 291. 
1. Cut the tube to have a wide tip, and work out from the center to the circumference to help prevent air voids.
14. Once you are sure that the cavity is full of Sikaflex, run a putty knife around the circumference to shape it the way you want. 
1. The above photos were taken shortly after the tape was removed and the Sikaflex was still tacky.
15. While the Sikaflex is still tacky, remove the painter's tape from both the deck [pulling tape at an angle away from the Sikaflex] and the deck iron flange.
16. Clean up any Sikaflex that escaped the tape.
17. Before putting everything away, remember to lay a blob of Sikaflex about the size of the cross section of the thickest part of the gasket on a piece of cardboard, and set it aside near the deck iron. 
1. This will be your tell-tale indicator of how firm [or not] the Sikaflex is under the flange since you now wait a few days before putting any load on the deck iron... [I do this anytime I use any goop to seal something on the boat... Is it set yet?]
18. After a couple of weeks [or whatever Sika recommends] you can sand and/or paint your Sikaflex gasket. [We left ours as-is, and looks great to us in plain white.]

Please share your experiences and alternative approaches with us so that we- and most importantly, others- can benefit from your efforts.

Tidbit: Fresh water as coolant for air conditioning and refrigeration systems

This is one of a series of brief, no nonsense posts that we call aTidbit:

noun; small and [possibly] particularly interesting item of gossip or information...

The purpose is to share succinct posts about lessons learned, or things we use or do that work [or don't...] that are common to most of us boaters. 

Our goal is to garner feedback from those of you having first-hand experience with a different approach/ solution/ product/ or additional useful information to share...  

We never assume what we are sharing is the ideal or only; it just seems to best suit our needs [and/or habits and/or budget] from our experiences thus far...

                               ➛ ➛ Peruse the right-hand sidebar for the up-to-date list of Tidbits ➛ ➛                               

Many boats have pump driven raw water cooling loops for air conditioners [A/C] and refrigeration systems. 

Water cooling is required on the A/C units when the compressor is runing for either cooling or heating [e.g., reverse cycle heating.] 

Water cooling also boosts the DC powered refrigeration system efficiency [beyond the electric fan most have...] when ambient temps in the compressor location exceed 90°F.

Our 3 air conditioners serve two functions: cooling and heating [using either reverse-cycle heat or resistance coils.] We often use the A/Cs for heat when at the dock in cooler weather. [We are currently at 56°N in SE Alaska.] 

Why use electricity?  Where we are, electricity costs about the same as the amount of diesel we would burn if we used our Espar heater, and this way it keeps the hours off the Espar...

We are lucky in that the Pacific waters usually stay warm enough for reverse-cycle heat to work well. [Water temps needs to be above ~42°F for reverse cycle heat to work well...] Therefore our A/C units also have resistance heat coils as a back-up. [i.e., just like a portable electric heater...] But resistance heating is not as efficient and requires more electricity to produce the same amount of heat as reverse cycle does, so if using electric heat, we prefer running reverse cycle on the A/C compressors...

However, since we also enjoy venturing to higher latitudes with even cooler water temps, we experimented with using a potable water tank for the cooling water loops because the water in those tanks [even though they sit low in the hull...] averages 10-20°F warmer than the water we are floating in; Perfect for using reverse cycle heat in colder waters...

This approach of is not new or unique: The previous owner of our boat did just this with one of the refrigeration water cooling loops. Great idea. Lets extend this to the air conditioners/ heat pumps...

For a couple of years now we have been using one of the boat's potable water tanks for all the cooling water loops— instead of raw water. [Our two potable water tanks— 110 gallons each— are low in the hull, but stay warm enough for efficient reverse-cycle heat— even in freezing water.] We dedicated one tank to this use. It is also still a back-up potable tank if needed...

The cooling plumbing can be easily switched back to raw water again if needed via 3-way valves. [We never intend to switch back to raw water, but can if necessary...] If we switched back and forth, we would have to clean and sanitizing the raw water loop[s] before switching back to potable... [More below...]

We should mention all our drinking water runs through a .5µ filter...

The advantages of using fresh water in cooling loops include:

• Greatly reduced maintenance [eliminated really...] on the cooling water pumps and loops with consequent longer lifespan of those components [fresh vs. salt water]
• Fewer open through-hull valves
• Reverse-cycle heat [more efficient than resistance heat] works when it otherwise wouldn't when in cooler raw water temperatures

Some disadvantages are:

• Coolant loops that were initially used with raw water need to be hyper cleaned/sanitized before switching to potable water [if the dedicated tank is also a back-up potable tank...]
• If installing new there is no problem connecting to potable water tankage...
• The potable tank used for these coolant loops is now 'emergency' only back-up for potable water— or we need to remember to turn off the refrigeration water cooling loop, and not use the A/C heat pump[s] 
• We placed a check list next to water tank selector valve as a reminder

To keep the water fresh in this potable water tank used for recirculating cooling water, we routinely pull water from, and immediately refresh this tank when doing laundry while running the watermaker or when at a dock.

This set-up works well for us, and has the added benefit of saving kind souls everywhere from feeling compelled to urgently inform us our bilge pump is running continuously... [Our raw water cooling discharge is above the waterline...]

Can you think of other advantages or disadvantages to this approach?  It has been working well on our boat for years...


Related Posts and Resources:

• DAN Boater Cold water boating tips [A worthwhile read...]
• Cold Water Safety
• Bedding Considerations in Cool Climates
• How Much Water, Anchor Chain, and Heating Fuel do we use?
• Dehumidifier
• Fuel Systems and Consumption
• Heating Systems Considerations
• Hydronic Heat from the Engine
• Air Conditioning? [Living on a boat in hot weather]
• Electrical consumption when staying at the dock in cold weather

Friday Funny 5-18/18 (Esparbacher)

Floyd is wearing his pants too high to be a furnace repairman.

Our Espar diesel heater finally gave out. It was making some strange noises, whining, whirring, and what I called screaming, and one day it just stopped. It was vintage 1999, so it's had a good, and productive life. One issue though, it quit while we were away from shore power, and it was in April, when it was still chilly at night. So instead, Bill ran the diesel generator all night, and the electric heater, and we stayed toasty warm.

We got a new Espar from a fellow boater on the east coast, who had purchased new, and never installed it into his own boat. He gave us a discount, which was great, it was a bargain, even with the cost of shipping to Alaska from the Maryland area. 

Two sources of noise, the Espar, and Elsie-snoring.

Here's what the new heater looks like, please pay no attention to the power cables that go to the laptop on the table. Do pay attention to the fact that Elsie is fast asleep next to the heater, and is in the thick of the construction zone, which doesn't faze her at all.

"Engine Room", lift up the sole, (floor in landlubber talk), and there it is!

White shell is the generator.

Bill is comfortably (boat yoga anyone?) arranged in the engine room.

Bill (so far), has done all of our own work on the boat, and it's parts/pieces.

Who me?

New duct work, because the new isn't the same diameter as the old, new control, in a new spot, new temp sensor, and the new Espar is bracketed in place.

Bill is attaching the new duct work.

Old controller was located in the aft sleeping cabin.

New controller is located in the main salon, next to the generator controls.

And there it is, all comfortable in it's new home.

Esparbacher

Bill touched the startup switch, aaaannnnnddd, nothing...... it's late, we hadn't had dinner, we call it a night.

The next morning, Bill did some re-wiring, and woosh, Houston, it's a GO! We let it run, burn off that new plastic smell, and conveniently heated up the aft head, so I had a warm room for my shower. 

It's now ready for the upcoming week of sunny 70+  weather. 😎

84 in here, with the diesel heater on..... it works.

As always, we enjoy hearing from you, either here in comments or on our Facebook Denali Rose Sailboat page

Using heat from the engine [hydronic heater cores] [Updated Feb-2021]

We occasionally participate in various boating forums. [See our Some Forums We Read sidebar for links...]

Some of those topics may be relevant here, so once in a while we will repost on our blog for reference.

The following may be one of those cases. To accommodate our non-boating blog readers, sometimes we add some {additional information and links} to the original forum post, below. 

There are also additional references listed at the end of some of these forum posts with related information. 

Link to original forum post [11-Nov-2015]

Re: Adding a heater to boat

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurboTim  Does anyone know where one can purchase some kind of heater that runs off engine coolant to heat my boat so I can start boating earlier in the year and later in the year?

Hi Tim,

Not knowing anything about the type, size, use, or current/desired cruising grounds for your vessel, I'm providing this feedback in the blind, so it may not apply to your circumstances.

We love the stainless steel Dickinson Radex heater in our pilothouse. [It uses computer pancake fans, so it is quiet- even though our engine isn't...]

In addition, since we have central forced air diesel heat [Espar] we use at anchor or when cool weather sailing, I am preparing to piggyback a hydronic core into the same forced air ductwork to pipe heat throughout our sailboat when we are motoring. [We enjoy winter outings...] This would be supplemental to the previously mentioned Dickinson Radex unit already installed in our pilothouse.

If you are interested in a central hydronic core running using waste heat from your engine(s), I have found that the REAL brand appears to be first rate. [Not that other brands aren't just as good, if not better, but I scrutinized some hydronic core products at the Seattle boat show earlier this year and the REAL brand looked to be superior. However, I haven't purchased anything yet so I cannot provide first hand information about using REAL products... But that is the brand I will be going with.]

I know Sure Marine Service carries the REAL brand and just about every other heating component one might need. [But I haven't done business with them yet...]

I'll close by sharing a couple of thoughts with you regarding the install of hydronic heating loops:

1) Ball valves in coolant loops: We tapped into our engine auxiliary coolant inlet and outlet [same used for your water heater heat exchanger] and installed short bodied ball valves at the engine and to each hydronic loop so we could shut off these coolant loops for maintenance, leaks, or when a hot heater core in the main salon is undesirable...

2) Proper fluid flow: Plumb the hose containing coolant from the engine into the lowest pipe of each hydronic core. [i.e., Coolant flow should be bottom-up in each core- to purge air; just like when changing the lube in an outboard engine lower unit.]
    
    2.1) Longer runs may require the insertion of an additional coolant pump [12 VDC or to spec.] in the hose circuit to ensure adequate coolant flow throughout the system.

3) Bleeding air from hydronic loops can be quite a chore as the top of each loop is not always conveniently accessible.

To make this easy, we use small, float style [NOT Schrader valve style; e.g., use the Watts FV-4M1 1/8] automatic air bleeders used in home boiler heating systems. [Cheap at ~US$10-15/each. Sometimes found in the box stores...]

Typically we install a T at the top [high point] of each hydronic core and install the bleeder on top of a small ball valve [to isolate the bleeder when not needed, and for maintenance...  i.e., Where the coolant return line to the engine exits the core.] Basically, air bleeders need to be installed at a high point in each coolant loop.

We installed air bleeders on our water and bus heaters. They eliminate manual bleeding- even when first commissioning a hydronic system, and anytime the engine coolant is changed...

In case this is useful.

Cheers!

Bill

__________________

Additional References:

• Worthwhile discussion on plumbing engine into hydronic heater loop

___________________________________________________________________


Follow-up post [11-Nov-2015]

Re: Adding a heater to boat

---

Quote:

Re: Adding a heater to boat Bill, I have existing diesel forced air ducting in our new to us boat (but no forced air system currently), would be very interested in hearing more details about how you plan to piggyback into the whole ducting system... I would consider doing that instead of installing a Red Dot heater if it seemed manageable for the semi (semi-semi?) skilled. Quote: Originally Posted by wrwakefield  In addition, since we have central forced air diesel heat [Espar] we use at anchor or when cool weather sailing, I am preparing to piggyback a hydronic core into the same forced air ductwork to pipe heat throughout our sailboat when we are motoring. Wow, these are three super useful suggestions for this... printing this one out now... thanks! Quote: Originally Posted by wrwakefield  1) Ball valves in coolant loops: 2) Proper fluid flow: 3) we use small, cheap, automatic air bleeders used in home boiler heating systems.

Thanks, Bass.

I'm glad some of it was useful for you.

RE: Having both diesel and hydronic heat sources sharing the same forced-air ductwork, there are a lot of variables, but that doesn't mean it has to be complicated.

For example, my Espar is mounted in my engine room [which is underneath my pilothouse.] The Espar has one main duct that branches outside of the engine room to feed 5 outlets positioned throughout the boat.

It is important to note that the Espar return air is ducted outside the engine room in an adjacent cabin [not outdoors... direct marine air wreaks havoc on these heaters...] This means odors from the engine room aren't being distributed throughout the vessel when that unit is running...

I will do the same with whichever hydronic unit I install.

As far as tying into the existing forced air duct, my first try will be simple: I will just insert a Y [not a 90° T...] in the heat duct near the Espar. [One with a diverter flap; e.g., A purpose made unit like this one for heating systems- similar in concept to those you can buy for diverting your clothes dryer vent into the house...] I plan to run a control cable to it for convenient access, and add switching that heat source flap to the check list for turning on the heaters.

I haven't done all of the engineering yet, but some considerations include:

1) BTUs available from engine waste heat [i.e., You can only tap so much heat from a particular engine without causing it to run at lower that desired temperatures. This can be somewhat mitigated by using the individual coolant loop ball valves I mentioned in my previous post as flow controls...]

2) Airflow capacity of existing ductwork: e.g., My Espar D5 pushes 137 CFM air on high. The hydronic cores I'm looking at push almost twice that much. [e.g., I reference a unit, below, that pushes 206 CFM.]

Will that be too much air flow for the existing duct network? [e.g. excessive duct noise, heat loss, etc.] If so, I plan to mitigate by running a couple of new ducts from the new hydronic core to areas adjoining the engine room [e.g., galley, workroom, and pilothouse] thus reducing airflow into main duct system. That would not be difficult in my boat, but does start to dilute the concept of sharing duct work and subsequent shorter installation time and cost...

Multiple ducts could easily be accomplished [in my set-up] with a unit like this one...

I hope this all makes sense. I'm just sharing my initial thinking before I have delved into the minutia... My approach may require adjustments once I get to that stage...

Cheers!

Bill

__________________
SV Denali Rose

Short on opinions; focused on research, facts & experience [yours and ours...]

_______________________________________________________

Additional References:

• Here is an article about installing forced air heat on a boat from Yachting Monthly
• Related Posts and Resources:
  
  
  • DAN Boater Cold water boating tips [A worthwhile read...]
  • Bedding Considerations in Cool Climates
  • How Much Water, Anchor Chain, and Heating Fuel do we use?
  • Dehumidifier
  • Fuel Systems and Consumption
  • Heating Systems Considerations
  • Hydronic Heat from the Engine
  • Air Conditioning? [Living on a boat in hot weather]
  • Electrical consumption when staying at the dock in cold weather

How much water, anchor chain, and heating fuel do we use...?

We occasionally participate in various boating forums. [See our Some Forums We Read sidebar for links...]

Some of those topics may be relevant here, so once in a while we will repost on our blog for reference.

The following may be one of those cases. To accommodate our non-boating blog readers, sometimes we add some {additional information and links} to the original forum post, below. 

Related posts:

• Fuel Systems and Consumption
• Anchoring and Storm Tackle
• Bedding Considerations in Cool Climates
• Living on a Boat in Cold Weather [Cold Climates]
• Dehumidifier

_____________________

Link to original forum post [23-Apr-2015]

23-04-2015, 17:28

#1

Macblaze Registered User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Edmonton Boat: Hunter 386 Posts: 211

What's Necessary to Liveaboard in the PNW [Pacific northwest] in Comfort? I am a total beginner at owning a boat. But I bought a pretty well equipped one and this summer we move aboard to live (hopefully) for a year. But as I am working my way through both the budget and the equipment list, I am not sure it's well-equipped enough. I've budgeted (on average) one night a week at a marina except for the winter months where we will likely hole up for 6 months. But now I am worried that I am missing some things to successfully live on the hook for 4 or 5 days at a time at an anchorage. We want to get up to the Broughtons or maybe even further north and get away from it all for as many weeks as we can. The boat has: Full enclosure 110 feet of chain and a long stern line 75 gallon water tank 35 gallon holding tank 2-10 lb propane bottles 10' zodiac with 8hp outboard Seaward 6 gallon water heater Fridge & Freezer Adler Barbour 12V plate & compressor Propane stove and oven Webasto hydronic heater 55 amp alternator Magnum 2800 watt charger inverter with remote panel 4 Trojan t105+ (225 amps) The only thing I have planned so far is to replace the 33lb Lewmar claw with a Rocna or Mantus. The issue is while we have done a reasonable amount of chartering, it's usually been travel everyday and a lot of motoring and staying in marinas. I have no idea how long 75 gallons of water or 10 lbs of propane lasts. And try as I might (because I suck at the math), until we get out there I have no idea how many amp-hours we are going to burn through on the hook. So do I need a generator or to add some solar? Is our tankage sufficient? What is missing to make our adventures comfortable and our learning experiences pleasant? This boat is new to us and so, obviously, is ownership. Right now it is all theory and so much of it that it's not making a lot of sense  All wisdom gratefully accepted. __________________ --- Gaudeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus... Neverforever.ca

Re: What's Necessary to Liveaboard in the PNW in Comfort?

---

Hi Bruce,

I've lived aboard a bit further north [Prince William Sound, Alaska] off and on for 20 years. Now we are further south in Wrangell, Alaska.

Regarding comfort, it sounds like you have all the pre-requisites. [Heat, water, fuel, etc.] One thing not often mentioned is the importance of ventilation- especially in cooler climates. If you don't ventilate [i.e., waste a bit of heat...] you will be living in a damp, moldy environment that often takes a while to manifest- so people don't see it coming until it arrives... It also helps to insulate the hull and underside of the deck to reduce condensation. But even if insulated, make sure to ventilate well... [i.e., don't close your dorade and solar vents no matter how tempting it might be when the wind is howling during the blizzard...]

Consider using a pressure cooker to reduce cooking fuel and water consumption, as well as release of moisture into the cabin...

Regarding consumption, the safe way to determine this is to live aboard at the dock, but off the grid [unplugged] as though you are at anchor. Keep your routines as you might prefer them [e.g., take daily showers, etc.] and monitor your consumption. You can always plug into shore power to charge the batteries, and turn on the hose to fill the water tanks...

Some personal examples: I lived aboard for a few winters in Valdez, Alaska where the temps averaged teens above zero F, but reached teens below zero for weeks at a time. During that period I averaged 1.5 gal/day heating oil [Sigmar bulkhead heater] in my Valiant Esprit 37. Since I had to haul water and fuel on a sled to the boat [it was frozen-in at those temps...] I knew I was consuming precisely 5 gallons/day/person including lots of hot beverages and daily [Navy] showers.

When I anchored out, I had to go ashore and haul fresh water from flowing streams between cold spells.

I also spent 2 winters in northern WA state (Semiahmoo) on a 47' Tayana with hydronic heat. I averaged about 3 gallons/day heating oil there... water consumption remained about the same.

On our current boat I dedicated one of the two fuel tanks to #1 heating oil to keep the Espar forced air heater happy [This helps reduce maintenance intervals as it prefers #1 with no additives...] I figure I can always transfer #1 to the #2 diesel tank for the engine and generator and add the correct % of Marvel Oil to it and keep everything happy.

We also are now spoiled with a water maker that doesn't seem to care about the cooler water temps. (10+ Gal/hr consistently in 40°F to 50°F water temps.) In SE Alaska our consumption in winter is 1.5 gal/day fuel oil, and 15-20 gallons/day [for 2] water because we are also spoiled with a washer/dryer on board...

Let me add another water usage metric that may be useful for perspective: Our house in Fairbanks, Alaska is high on a hill where a well is not cost effective. Therefore many homes in this area have underground water holding tanks (ours is 2000 gallons) We have water delivered (or haul it ourselves in a 400 gallon tank in my truck...) so I know precisely what our water usage is. Over 13 years we have averaged 35 gallons/day/adult with all the usual water consuming appliances [clothes and dish washers...] and fresh water toilet flushes. We take no real water preservation measures other than to use what we need and need what we use...

Regarding ground tackle: From my experience you will need at least 300 ft of anchor rode to be safe in our often deeper than usual anchorages on the northern part of this coast. You mentioned 110ft of chain. If that is all you have, plan on more before you go out... [It doesn't have to be all chain, but that is a personal preference...]

e.g., On our present boat, I put in a new windlass with all new chain in June 2014 to accommodate simultaneous use of 2 permanently installed anchors on the bow (5 anchors on board) The main bower has 360ft of 5/16 G4 chain (the max I could fit on that side of the anchor locker...) attached to 100ft of 1in 3-strand rode. [The Hail Mary rode to be let out in an extreme situation where we might have to cut and run...] The secondary anchor has the remaining 190ft of the chain [550ft/barrel of 5/16in G4...] attached to another 100ft 1in 3-strand... I also have 3 other 300ft 3-strand with 40ft chain in bags for deployment of other anchors as needed... you get the idea. Why? In years past I've been blown off my anchor in williwaws in the dark and I don't want to ever experience that again...

I hope this is useful.

Have fun living aboard. I look forward to hearing what you discover...

Cheers!

Bill

__________________
SV Denali Rose

Short on opinions; focused on research, facts & experience [yours and ours...]